Q from Fabian, from South Africa,
15th October 2009:-
Do you have
any info on the school boy international player & coaching lists of names 1963.
A from CG: What I have is the ESFA
book. Nothing yet down on computer, just the book.
reply from Fabian:- do you have any
info on William Hinton ex England schoolboy captain?
A from CG: this is what the ESFA
book says about William Hinton - He was registered with Tottenham Schools
Association, and he played all
his schoolboy games in 1963. Now, in no particular order, he played
against Wales twice, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Scotland and
West Germany. It does not say that he was the captain... Okay - further on
in the book - it gives the results of those games. Against Wales on April
20 1963 - 2-0 winners at Swansea, and 4-1 winners at Wembley on 27 April in
front of 90,000. Against Northern Ireland on 3 May - 4-1 winners in
Belfast. Against Scotland on 11 May - 1-0 winners in Nottingham,
attendance 22,000. Against Republic of Ireland on 17 May - 2-2 draw in
Leicester. Against West Germany on 24 May .... lost 3-1 in Heilbron. Now -
looking at the 1963-64 Official FA Yearbook. That gives us a bit more to
read about. That reveals that E. Curwen was the captain, and Hinton was
the right-back. It also gives us date, which I have provided above.....
Q from Peter Webb, from River Kwai,
Thailand, 10th October 2009:-
I spend hours and hours reading
through your site, fantastic collection of stats. It has now come to the point
where me and my mates have been desperately searching for a mistake. After a
couple of "near misses" finally I think I've found one....!!!!!! On the
England goalkeepers, David Seaman's comment is "Faced 3 penalties.
2 penalties were scored. 1 penalty was missed." England vs.
Scotland, EURO '96, Gary McCallister...???
A from CG: Okay - I have just spent
a few minutes on this - and his one miss I have recorded is the one against
Luxembourg in 1998. That is as far back as the Match Summaries go that I have
managed to do - hence, I was adding them has I came across them..... so on this
occasion, I will update Seaman's record to include the penalty save..... In my
defence - you have picked up on an incomplete page - hehe. So what else
can I say, apart from - keep searching. Its what keeps the website fresh and
accurate, when people like yourself picks up on the
Q from Lee McGowan, from Brisbane,
Australia, 9 October 2009:- Your site has been highly recommended by a friend
who regularly uses the info he gets from you to win arguments in the pub.
I'm a researching for my PhD at QUT in Brisbane Australia. It's about football
writing. I'm trying to find out a bit more about the 1950's referee
William Ling. Do you know anything about him or would you know anyone I
could contact to find out more. Keep up the good work on the site....
I'd love to hear if you have
anything else among the yearbooks. I've been onto the Ely City site and
I'm waiting on a response from them. Unfortunately the guy who wrote the
piece died two years ago. Wikipedia is a great starting point. I then
tried this football resource archive called rsssf or something - loada shite.
Recommended I google his name. I was like yeah, cheers mate.
A from Cris Freddi: Now then. Bill
Ling. I haven't got much on him besides what's in the Pilkarska World Cup
booklet - and I don't know its sources. According to them, he refereed only two
World Cup finals matches, both in 1954, both Hungary v West Germany, including
the final - and the booklet says he ran the line in one match in the 1950
finals. He was born 1 Aug 1908 and died 8 May 1984; my Polish is shite but it
looks like he died in Canada...I know he refereed the 1948 Olympic Final and the
1951 FA Cup Final. And he was definitely known as Bill: it's in books by Arthur
Ellis and Jackie Milburn.
Reply from Lee:- That's great. I
know about the matches you've mentioned here. He also did a couple of
international friendlies including one between Scotland and Wales in 1951. I'll
see about getting a hold of the Ellis and Milburn books. I'm also going to phone
the British Football Museum see if they have anything. The Bill Ling stuff is
useful and knowing now he died in Canada gives me somewhere else to look.
You've been a great help so far Chris. Like I said, before I'm very grateful. I
will also be sure and share what I learn.
A from CG: The FA Yearbook from
1952-53 has a list of leading Referee's in it, alas Ling isnt one of them.....
but it does confirm that in 1947, he was the referee in the FA Amateur Cup
Final. The next year, 1948, he was one of the FA Cup Final linesmen, Reg
Leafe was the other. And in 1951, he was the FA Cup Final Referee.
Now the next years publication, the 1953-54 yearbook gets a tad more
interesting. There's a picture of Ling... Apparently, in the summer of (I
presume) 1952, FIFA organised a conference for Referee's in Macolin,
Switzerland. Ling attended, there is photographic proof. Besides which,
the text says that both Ling and Arthur Ellis were the two referees selected
from England. That's it I'm afraid - after this point - he has become a
forgotten man. But I think because he did the 1954 World Cup Final, he is
forgotten about when doing his other match in the 1954 World Cup, Hungary 8 West
Germany 3 on 20 June, what a match that must have been to not only witness, but
referee.... Some mistakenly give the credit of the 1958 World Cup Final to
Ling...some shocking work there, it was in fact Guigue.
Reply from Lee:-
This is some of the best information
so far. The article will be all the richer for it. I'll let you have
a look when it's done.
Q from Tony Clive, location unknown,
13 August 2009:-
please tell me, if you know when the new England
away strip is coming out, will it be before or after the next world cup?
A from CG: It will be released early
next year. Probably March or April. Its going to be red again, and
the rumours I am hearing is that is going to be in the same style as the recent
white shirt, but red obviously, and no collar. Making it very much like
the 1966 red shirt. However much we like the the minimalist style of
shirt, the guys at Umbro/Nike really need to understand that its not the shirt
we wear that makes the difference, but the players wearing them....
Q from John Curran, from Spruce
Grove, Alberta, Canada, 6 August 2009:- I can't find any reference of Bobby
playing for "Black Gold" in June 1978 in Edmonton Alberta Canada against Benfica
of Portugal, I know he was here as I have an autographed official magazine by
him but no exact date other than published date June 23 1978. If you need a copy
I can do so.
A from Colin Jose: Bobby Moore did
play for Edmonton Black and Gold on June 23, 1978 against Benfica. I looked it
up in the Edmonton Journal today and it says that he played. However, it
seems that it was the only game that he played. Black and Gold were a team put
together to try to get Edmonton an NASL franchise. They played five games in
Edmonton two against Roma, the Benfica game, and games against NASL teams
Seattle Sounders. They also played Roma in Calgary. Black and Gold were also
supposed to play against Poland when the team were on their way back from the
1978 World Cup in Argentina, but Poland pulled out of that game. That was
supposed to be Moore's second appearance. Geoff Hurst played more than one
game. His connection to the team was through the coach Ian Crawford. Both had
some connection with Telford.
Q from Nick Salthouse, from Horwich,
England, 3 August 2009:- Please could you advise the best place to find the u23
squad which faced West Germany at While Hart lane in 1961. I am partially
interested to find out if Bobby Moore, Mandy Hill and Bruce Crawford played in
A from CG: The team that day was:-
Eliott Macedo, George Cohen, Len Ashurst, Francis Shawcross, John McGrath, Bobby
Moore (captain), Terry Paine, Fred Hill, Johnny Byrne, John Barnwell and Michael
Q from Derek Jenkins, location
unknown, 18 July 2009:-
I have just come across your Website and have, already, found it fascinating.
I must, however, correct information regarding one entry, from information which
I have gleaned from research. This is as follows:- Boyle, Thomas W. - His name
was Thomas William Boyle and his Date of Birth was 29th January,
1886, i.e. two years earlier than previously recorded. This was, I think, due
to an error in a publication early in his career which was never corrected. He
died, in tragic circumstances, on 2nd January, 1940 but his death was
not registered until the 5th which is the date often erroneously
quoted. I have a copy of both his Birth and Death Certificates.
A from Cris Freddi:
Births Marriages Deaths lists a Thomas Wilkinson Boyle, so he did exist. But
birth registered in Haslingden, Lancashire. The International Genealogical Index
(not always trustworthy...) also details Thomas Wilkinson Boyle, but born 3 Feb
1889 at Saint John The Evangelist, Accrington. Meanwhile the BMD shows a Thomas
William Boyle birth registered Jan-March 1886, in Barnsley. I
wondered about the possibility of Thomas Wilkinson Boyle still being the
England footballer but born in Lancashire, not Yorkshire as in Doug Lamming's
book. But according to Doug, Boyle was born in Hoyland, near
Barnsley and his first club was Hoyland Star, followed by
Elsecar in the Barnsley League, then Barnsley FC. So it's unlikely that he came
over from Accrington as a young man to play for Barnsley clubs when there was
another TW Boyle around who was born in Barnsley... The second name
Wilkinson came from Jim Creasy's research in Colindale - and why would a
football paper have called him that if it wasn't true? I mean, it's not a name
you'd invent, is it? Obviously someone mixed the two TW Boyles up to create a
monster for stattoes like us! But it suggests Thomas Wilkinson was a footballer
Reply from Derek Jenkins:-
I have been a
Burnley supporter since November, 1945 and was
brought up reciting “Halley, Boyle & Watson”! I did the research some time ago
as I was interested in Boyle’s career and his tragic end. I am convinced that
the T W Boyle born in 1886 is our man. My reasoning is as follows:-
The first reference I have for him is in a Footballers’ Who’s Who for 1907/08,
where his date of birth is shown as 29 Jan 1888 (this is where I think the
error first occurred) He was then with
Barnsley and his previous clubs are Hoyland
Star F.C. and Elscar Athletic. He was also stated as living in Hoyland.
Doug Lamming, in his early 1970’s publication on English Internationals lists
him as “Thomas W.” , shows his previous clubs as Hoyland and Elscar and gives
his date of birth as 1889. I think that he assumed this year because, on his
death certificate his age is given as 51. As he was insane at his death he
would not have any idea how old he was and I think that this was a guess. As
I said previously, he died on 2nd January, 1940, the 5th
being the date of registration. On this certificate he is named as Thomas
William. I obtained this certificate when up at the PRO on family
research. On trying to obtain his birth certificate, using the 1888 year I
turned up Thomas Wilkinson, born in Haslingden to an unmarried housemaid. I
suspected this information from the start, as I could not see how she would
end up in
Barnsley. I even thought that, with his
name, Boyle, perhaps he was born in
Ireland (other instances
have occurred of players playing for two countries at this time) but further
investigation, utilising the 1891 Census produced the 1886 certificate. This
has the following information:-
Thomas William Boyle DOB 29th January, 1886 to Patrick, a coal
miner, and Ellen Boyle (both illiterate). Place of Birth:- Platts
Bearing in mind this information, I think that we can be certain that he is
Reply from Cris Freddi:-
I disagree with him on a few
points, but they don't affect the result. I don't think...! First, I
don't believe Doug Lamming assumed the year of Boyle's birth. He was far too
good a researcher to assume anything. What I suspect happened is that Doug
found that year in a Census, and it was a year out. It very often is. In fact
I'd say it's the norm, in my experience. Secondly, it's not impossible
for an unmarried housemaid to move from Lancashire to Yorkshire. Even in those
days, where people generally stayed put. After all, being unmarried, she may
have wanted to leave an area where people KNEW she was unmarried. That was a
real stigma in those days; they put you in mental hospitals for it well into
the 20th Century;... Still it's hard to believe she moved to Barnsley and
there happened to be someone else called TW Boyle who was born there. Though
it's not impossible... Thirdly, why did the 1907-08 yearbook get his date of
birth wrong? Had he lied about his age in 1906 to persuade Barnsley he had
more years in him, so they'd be more likely to take him on? Possibly. If 1886
is correct, he was already 20 when Barnsley signed him, and he may have wanted
them to think he was still a kid, with potential. But it still makes you
What might be worth asking is if the death certificate gives an exact date of
birth. If it says 1886, great. If it says 1888, his being born in Lancashire
may not be the end of it...
Finally, if Thomas Wilkinson Boyle had nothing to do with all this, why did
Jim Creasy find exactly that name in the football paper(s) he checked in
Colindale. Maybe someone made an assumption at the time, but again it's a
question that hasn't been answered... So I suppose I should have my doubts.
But it's Thomas William on the death certificate, so that settles it.
Reply from Derek Jenkins:-
I realise that I might have set the cat among the pigeons but I had very
strong doubts about the birth in Haslingden (I know Haslingden from my youth
and I think that the odds of anyone ending up from there in Hoyland,
Barnsley c1888 are far higher than those of
me winning the top Premium Bond Prize.) I must also say that Boyle’s entry
in the 1907/08 Who’s Who refers to him as “Thomas William” and says that he
“Resides in Hoyland”. I therefore am confident that we can take the
Haslingden birth as not referring to him. I have a copy of that Birth
Certificate and I think that it refers to an interesting but tragic social
story - not one connected with football! Cris Freddi questions as to why
the Who’s Who should have got the date wrong. I think the answer is simple –
it was either a mistake or a misprint which was carried on afterwards. I
would be the last person to denigrate Doug Lamming (with whom I exchanged
correspondence on a number of occasions) but in his seminal 1972 work he
refers to “Thomas W.” and states that he was “b Hoyland near Barnsley,
Yorks 1889” i.e. with no actual
date of birth. I think that I should also repeat that his date of death was 2nd
January, 1940 and not the 5th, which was the date of
registration. His age is given as 51 and I assumed that was where Doug quoted
1889. Boyle died, in dreadful circumstances, in
Mental Hospital, the
cause of death being “General Paralysis of the Insane”. A truly tragic
Q from Bernie Drummond, Waltham
Cross, Hertfordshire, 27 June 2009:-
Hi guys, guess
what? we do know where the three lions originates from. King Edward had
two kids Martha and Steven, Steven (who was in league with the pope) being
the male would inherit the throne unless his older sister married some one of
royal descent. She went to France and married Geoffrey of Anjou (that's
where the name England comes from, up till then the south east of England was
called 'Cant' as in Canterbury, it's only after the Saxons invaded that the
spelling takes on the German 'Kent') the three lions is his coat of arms.
A from GI: Richard the Lionheart was
the first King to use the three lions as his Royal Coat of Arms, in 1198. The
Coat of Arms of Geoffrey of Anjou were six rampant lions, but his son, who
became Henry II of England, founded the House of Plantagenet in 1154. Richard
the Lionheart was Henry's son.
1127 AD - The oldest known coat of arms mentioned was where King Henry I of
England supposedly gave his son-in-law, Geoffrey Platagenet, in 1127 AD a coat
that consisted of an azure shield that bore four gold lions. (Henry had a
legitimate daughter Matilda (subsequently married to the Count of Anjou).
However, it was his nephew Stephen (reigned 1135-54), son of William the
Conqueror's daughter Adela, who succeeded Henry after his death, as the barons
mostly opposed the idea of a female ruler.)
1152 AD - three lions pass, guard, in pale, or. The third leopard, or lion, used
in the Arms of England, was first added by this Monarch (Henry II) to the coat
of Normandy, on his marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine, in 1152. Henry II
was not crowned King of England until 1154.
So, to sum up, Henry II introduced the three lions to the Normandy Coat of Arms
in 1152, but this did not become the Royal Coat of Arms until 1198.
Reply from Bernie
Hi Glen, well
really do know your stuff. I was particularly impressed by all the corrections. It seems
you do know where the 3 lions originates from after all.
Keep up the good
Q from Barry Clemitson, Norwich,
Norfolk, 2 June 2009:- One of the first matches I was taken to was a Holland
u-23 England U-23 match in the early 70's. My dad was in the RAF at the time and
the game was held at Maastricht ( I think ) but details on this game are almost
non-existent and the only details I can recall were that there were few goals (
if any) and Stuart Barrowclough of Newcastle played. (my lack of knowledge is
tempered by the fact I was only 8). Any light on this would be appreciated
score, crowd, team etc... ps any chance on the U-23 section ever getting
A from GI: 29 May 1973, at
Maastricht, the under 23 side lost to the Netherlands. Att: 5,500
Teams that night - Netherlands - Schrijvers; Van Ierssel, Krijgh; Walbeek,
Schneider, De Jong; Jansen, Notten, Vanderkerkhof, Jeuring, Mulders. England -
Stevenson; McDowell, Pejic, Cantello, Blockley, Lock; Mortimer, Perryman,
Johnson, Whymark (Kennedy), Barrowclough.
The match report from the FA Yearbook 1973-74:-
Because of European Cup calls of
Ajax players, it was agreed that the Netherlands team be allowed to include
several players over the age of 23 for the match at Maastricht. The only
goal came midway through the second half when midfield player De Jong broke
clear of two England defenders, and Stevenson allowed a low shot to pass through
his legs into the net. Up to this point England had had most of the game.
The England forwards had played well during the first half with Mortimer and
Johnson particularly impressive but the number of clear cut chances were few.
In defence both Blockley and Lock stood firm against any challange, with Lock
particularly commanding in the air. However, Pejic was hard pressed to halt the
strong running right-winger for the Netherlands, Vanderkerkhof. In the
second half England were increasingly under pressure. Once the Netherlands had
taken the lead England's chances of saving the match faded.
Hope this helps, and I will get the
u23 section underway soon.
Q from Roy Morgan, location unknown,
31 May 2009:-
Would you have any idea how I can find any record
of my brother’s appearances for the English Grammar schools, boys’ National
Football team which played the Scottish schoolboys team at Celtic in 1957 or
1958. His name is Norman Derek Harries Morgan (first names could be in a
slightly different order due to our Welsh parents never being sure which of the
given names they preferred). He went to Ashford Grammar School in Middlesex and
I know that he played at least twice for the England Team. Can’t find any
A from GI: I must admit, I had no
idea such a team existed, but initially found some reports of an annual fixture
between the F.A. Grammar Schools XI and a Public Schools XI in the late 1950s.
The Grammar Schools XI was sometimes labelled 'London Grammar Schools', but also
referred to as the 'Grammar Schools of the home counties' and they faced the
Public Schools during the Christmas holidays at the end of the year. I dug a
little deeper and found that these teams were then merged annually as part of
F.A. Schools Week, an initiative by the F.A. to help progress the talents of the
budding footballers from the academic world. In 1958, they played against
stronger (and older) opposition in the Universities Athletic Union XI and one of
the top amateur sides of the fifties, Corinthian-Casuals.
Your brother gets quite a few mentions in The Times, no less. Firstly on April
18th, 1958 in the attached article on the F.A. Schools Week. Then, four days
later, he played in the combined English Public and Grammar Schools XI against
their Scottish equivalents at Dulwich, a 4-3 victory, although he gave away the
penalty, from which the Scots scored the opening goal.
In 1959, he was not selected for the A team, which lost 4-0 to Pegasus at the
F.A. Schools Week, but he was recalled against the Scots again, the following
week, a year to the day after the Dulwich game (April 21st) and this was played
at Celtic Park, Glasgow.
I've sent all the articles I found. They seem to tie up completely with your
recollections. I'd be interested to learn what became of your brother after such
an exciting period.
Q from Brian Peat, location unknown,
18 May 2009:- What was the England schoolboy team that beat France at Wembley in
1974? I believe Trevor Francis was on that team.
A from CG: I dont have the actual
line-ups - but I do have a list of players taken from the ESFA Schoolboys
Record. What I do know is England played France on April 6 1974, and won
5-2. These are the players who participated:-
George Bailey, Paul Clark, Peter Coyne, Ray Deakin, Steve Gardner, Bob Hale,
Paul Haverson, Mark Higgins (Captain), Andy Kingston, Kevin Mabbutt, Martin New,
Martin Patching, Kenny Sansom, Peter Savill.
Three of these were obviously substitutes. But you may note that there is no
Trevor Francis. He did not represent England at schoolboy level.
Q from Matt Elener, location
unknown, 18 May 2009:- I'm
trying to compile information of how many England FC fans use each different
Fansite that is available to them, whether it be official or unofficial. I
realise that your site doesn't ask for any kind of membership or registration
but do you have record of how many hits you take at your site? Any information
you could provide will be greatly appreciated.
A from CG (after deliberation
regarding a timeframe): Okay - then we are taking 2006, April 2006: 760,000
hits, May 2006: 1,900,000 hits, June 2006: 3,100,000 hits, July 2006: 920,000
Q from Graham O'Brien, location unknown, 4 May 2009:-
With reference to your article
[regarding] the 3 lions being owned by the monarch can you please explain to
me about the O'Brien coat of arms and who it is that owns that of which is 3
lions, Please i would like an explanation if you may..?
A from GI: For all O'Brien's out there who have wondered
why the lions on our crest are half gold and half silver here is the
Milesius, of Spain around 1700 (possibly meant to be 700?) Brian Boru's
ancient ancestor killed three lions whiles hunting in one day, and
commemorated the achievement by using the three lions in his coat of arms.
Much later Brian Boru used them on his shield.
The O'Brien's used the three gold lions up until 1543. That was when Henry
VIII conquered Ireland and Murrough O'Brien the Tanist was given the choice of
dividing the lions in half (Gold & Silver ) or loose them altogether.
Because Henry VIII also had three gold lions for his own coat of arms.
Murrough O'Brien choose to divide the lions thereby keeping the coat of arms
for all O'Brien's.
So, unrelated to the origins of the F.A. crest.
from Brian Thomas, location unknown, 29 April 2009:-
I recently saw a picture of Bobby Moore
captaining Team USA against England. England were wearing what looked like a
round necked plain white admiral kit, but I cant find any mention of this kit
on retro sites. Do you have any info?
England were in fact wearing a yellow uniform.
Q from Jonathan Eldridge, location unknown, 31 March 2009:-
How many games have the senior
team played at Wembley, both old and new?
A from CG:
from Norway, 15 March 2009:-
I was reading on your website, as
I was wondering how many players that have captained England in World Cups.
I can see that you have not included all the players that took the captain's
armband when the captain was substituted. You've included that Wilkins took it
when Robson was injured against Morocco, and that Shilton took it when Wilkins
was sent off later in the match.
This happened twice in World Cup 2006, when David Beckham was replaced.
Against Ecuador, John Terry was England's captain and against Portugal, Gary
Neville wore the armband.
This was in "my time", so I remember this, but I do not know which players
that took the armband when this has happened on previous occasions.
If you know the answer to the following questions, I would be pleased. :)
Bryan Robson was substituted against Portugal in
Mexico 86, who took the armband? Wilkins?
Terry Butcher was substituted against Cameroon in Italy 90, who took the
Terry Butcher was substituted against Germany in Italy 90, who took the
Who captained England in the bronze final, when Butcher did not play? Shilton?
Is this the correct statistics?
states on the Captains page: Only players who started a match as
captain are recognised as official England captains. Players who took over the
captain's armband during a match when the starting captain had to leave
the pitch because of injury or, in modern times, because of substitution are
not listed as captains in the Football Association's official records. In
fact, it has said it does not even keep records of those temporary armband
So, the passing on of the armband in such
circumstances can only ever be a nominal captaincy. Shilton was captain
against Italy in 1990, but when Butcher was substituted against Cameroon
and West Germany, I don't think the armband was passed on, though I
can't be certain. However, Shilton had been captain against Egypt, earlier in
the competition, when Butcher missed the game, so he would have been the
logical choice. He didn't wear the armband in either game, possibly because it
was harder to pass on to the goalkeeper, and as these games were both packed
with high drama and tension, the last thing on the players' minds would be to
make sure someone was wearing the armband.
Against Portugal, I think we can assume that Wilkins
took over from Robson, though again, I don't have any evidence, but as he
assumed the captaincy against Morocco, albeit very briefly, it was surely his
right against the Portuguese.
Q from Gerry Luczka, from Bolton, 23 February 2009:-
I'm doing a project with a group of
young people around the England Football Team.
Could you give me some background information as to why the England shirts
have the three Lions on. How did this come about. What is the history
behind the 3 Lions..?
A from CG:
Q from Joy Brady, location unknown, 22 February 2009:-
Can you help me by telling me the 8
teams and dates Bobby Moore played for the u23 between 1960 and 1962?
A from CG:
1-1 vs. Italy, on 9 November 1960, at Newcastle -
2-0 vs. Wales, 8 February 1961, Everton
0-1 vs. Scotland, 1 March 1961, Middlesbrough -
4-1 vs. West Germany, 15 March 1961, Tottenham
7-1 vs. Israel, 9 November 1961, Leeds -
5-2 vs. Netherlands, 29 November 1961, Rotterdam
4-2 vs. Scotland, 28 February 1962, Aberdeen -
4-1 vs. Turkey, 22 March 1962, Southampton
Q from John Collison, from Caterham, 10 February 2009:-
am trying to research a match from 8 May 1953. Ireland v England Schoolboys
International played at Grosvenor Park (Distillery FC). The reason for
my research is that my father Captained the England Schoolboys team on that
day, Henry Collison (playing centre half - number 5) and I am trying to find
out if any records or particularly photographs of the match exist. I have his
shirt, the programme and a special pen that the English Schools FA presented
him with on the day and a photo would finish this off. I am not sure if
you have records or a history section but anything you could do to help would
be appreciated or recommendation of any one else I could speak to.
A from CG: The Official F.A. Yearbook 1953-54 does make a passing comment
regarding this match, but nothing more. The England Schoolboys
International Players Records also makes mention of Collison's solitary
appearance, but again, no more than that.
Q from Pete Sayers, location not given, 6 February 2009:-
I wonder if you could help me? My first
trip to Wembley as an excited eleven year old was in 1964 to see England
Schoolboys draw 1-1 with their West German counterparts. I wondered if you had
any information about that particular game or could suggest where I might find
out for example, who played that day?
A from CG: You and 89,999
others watched the 1-1 draw on 25 April 1964. Apparently England's goal
hit the post and was dubiously awarded, although it does not say to who.
Pielken equalised in the 72nd minute; The line-up is a little harder to
find. Because apart from the Official 64-65 FA Yearbook, which has the results,
and a small write-up... The only other publication that comes close is the
England Schoolboys International Players Records. Which lists it by name, and
then opposition played against below that name. And England played Germany
again two days later, the list doesn't differentiate between the two matches.
But here goes.... in alphabetical order.
These players appeared against Germany in one or both 1964 matches:
Robert Bristow (both matches) Trevor Brooking (one of the
matches, don't know which? - but wow! this was his only schoolboy appearance!) Ian Brough (both) Ron Bryan (one) Stuart Creech
(one) Roger Davidson (both) Roy Evans (The Liverpool
manager in years to come...both matches) Derek Forster (both) Graham Fox (both) Robert Glozier (both...and Captain in
both) Douglas Giffiths (one) George Luke (both) George McVittie (both) Colin Suggett (both) Tommy
Reply from Pete Sayers:-
Thanks for your help Chris. Fascinating
stuff. Wonder if I saw Trevor Brooking? Also, what a crowd for a schoolboy
international. Those were the days eh?
Q from Andy Watts, location not given, 31 January 2009:-
also from William Ryan, location not given, 6 February 2009:-
I am the co-author of a new book in the writing about Allan and Ron
'Chopper' Harris. Ron told me that he was Captain of the England Youth Team
that won the World Cup in 1962. Hard as I have tried I can find no
information whatsoever about this. Any help you can be on the subject
will be gratefully appreciated and a full acknowledgement will be made in the
book itself. AW
Is there any way I could obtain the full results of all the rounds of this tournament leading to the final. WR
A from CG: Answer and scans were provided from the 1963-64
Official FA Yearbook.
Reply from Andy Watts:-
That's fantastic, and certainly will get you pride of place in the
acknowledgements. Basically what we are after is everything that you
have, dates, line-ups etc and if you
can scan the picture, even better. Ron has clear memories of who he
kicked, and who kicked him, but he needs a nudge with a few facts and figures
to really get him going. It's going to be a fascinating insight into the
two brothers. Allan's career really took off after he quit playing, and Ron's
success at Chelsea make for a nice balance.
Q from Mark Chapman, location to
given, on 29 January 2009:-
I was interested to see your article on the disputed England matches on the England Football online website. Regarding the Ibrox game, I attach a copy of the Times article that reported on the replayed game, in which they mention that "this result of two goals each will be entered into the records of England v Scotland in place of the Ibrox match". This seems to back up your stance, of which I concur. It seems the IFFHS is a bit of an oddball organisation. However, just a small aside, I don't agree with your assessment of the abandoned Rep of Ireland game in 1995. If appearances (caps) are to count, so must the result, but that's just my opinion and nothing to get worried about!
A from CG: I know - this is always a sore point! The point with the 1995 abandoned Republic match is the Football Association still continued to award the caps to the 11 players. But as with all abandoned matches, the result cannot count, because a result was not reached.... Argentina in 1953 was only played for 21 minutes, but because it was a rainstorm with that match, its allowed to stand as a 0-0 draw. I suppose the Football Association are ashamed with the riotting goings-on in 95, so decided to try and forget about it.
We have tried to compromise on this one, instead of putting the match in the 'forgotten matches' pidgeon hole, we have made mention of it whenever we can, because it's confusing otherwise... It will have a Match Summary when I get to it, and will have all sorts of footnotes..... Does this make sense? I am re-reading it - and it still gives me headaches.
The conclusion in a nutshell should be - Neither the result or the appearances should count... but The FA insisted on giving them their caps, presumably so as to waste their well-earned cash(!!!), as they would have already been physically made. So we have to too. We must agree with the FA on results and appearances, because that is the official line... that is the history book. The rest of it - where they screw up, we correct and make it known. Goalscorers, referees, captains... They can't even get some of that correct.
Another conclusion - ignore IFFHS and FIFA. They like things to fit into their niche. And it just doesn't. England is too big for that.
Postscript from CG: After
noticing that the Football Association has now accepted the abandoned Republic
match into their own history, we have decided to follow suit. The Republic
of Ireland match of 1995 is now officially recorded as a 0-0 scoreless draw.
And if anyone brings up David Kelly.....????!!!!